乔布斯《遗失的访谈》整理

来源：互联网发布：足球竞猜哪个软件编辑：程序博客网时间：2024/04/19 15:14

这个视频实在是太给力了，做下整理。附上视频地址：http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTUxNDY1NDY4.html

内容整理参考：http://www.hxen.com/englishvideo/yanjiang/2013-05-08/218732_2.html

you were 21 and you were a big success, you have just sort of done it by the seat of your pants. You don’t have any particular training on this. How do you learn to run a company?
21岁就这么大成功。可你从来没有这方面的经验，完全是凭直觉。你是怎么学会管理公司的？

er… you know, throughout the years in business, I found something, which was I always ask why we do things, and the answers you inevitably get are “oh that’s just the way it’s done”, nobody knows why they do what they do, nobody thinks about things very deeply in business, that’s what I found. I’d like to give you an example. 在生意场多年，我发现一个现象。我做事前总问为什么。可得到答案永远是“我们向来这样做”。没人反思为什么这么做，我给你举个例子。When we were building our apple Is in the garage, we knew exactly what they cost. When we got into factory in the Apple II days, the accounting had this notion of the standard cost, where you kind of set a standard cost at the end of a quarter, and you adjust with the varies, and I kept asking why do we do this? 我们在车库里组装Apple I时，成本算得清清楚楚。可工厂生产Apple II时，财务部使用的是标准成本。每个季度估算标准成本，然后根据实际情况调整。于是我不断追问，为什么要这样做？And the answer is “that’s just the way it’s done”, and after about 6 months of digging into this, what I realized was the reason you do it is because you don’t really have good enough controls to know about how much cost, so you guess, and you fix your guess at the end of the quarter. And the reason why you don’t know how much it cost is because your information systems aren’t good enough. So ...but nobody said it that way.得到的答复是，这是一贯的做法。6个月后我发现其实是因为我们无法精确计算成本，所以只能先估算，然后进行修正。根本原因是信息管理系统不够完善。但没有人承认这一点。So later on when we design this automatic factory for Mackintosh, we were able to get rid of a lot of these antiquated concepts, and know exactly what something costs to the second. So in business, a lot of things are … I call it “folklore”, they are done because they were done yesterday, and the day before. And ...so what that means is that if you are willing to sort of ask a lot of questions, think about things and work really hard, you can learn business pretty fast, not the hardest thing in the world.后来我们为Mackintosh设计自动化工厂，抛开这些陋习，做到了精确控制所有成本。生意场上有很多约定俗成的规定，我称为陈规陋习，因为以前这样做，所以就一直这样做下去。所以只要你多提问多思考，脚踏实地工作，你很快就能的学会经商，这不是什么难事。

对于编程的认识

I think the greatest value of learning how to think.... I think everybody in this country should learn how to program a computer, should learn a computer language, because it teaches you how to think, it’s like going to law school, I don’t think anybody should be a lawyer, but I think going to law school may actually be useful coz it teaches you how to think in a certain way. In the same way the computer programming teaches you in a slightly different way how to think... And so … I view computer science as a liberal art. It should be something everybody takes in a year in their life, one of the courses they take is, you know learning how to program.我认为学习思考最大的价值在于... 我觉得所有美国人都应该学习编程，学习一门编程语言，学习编程教你如何思考，就像学法律一样，学法律的人未必都成为律师，但法律教你一种思考方式。同样编程会教你另一种思考方式，所以我把计算机科学看成基础教育，是每个人都应该花一年时间学习的课程。

对于钱的认识

It's very interesting. I was worth, err, about over an million dollars when I was 23, and over 10 million dollars when I was 24, and over a hundred million dollars when I was 25. And it wasn't that important, Because I never did it for the money. I think money is wonderful thing because it enables you to do things; it enables you to invest ideas that don't have a short term payback and things like that. But especially at that point in my life, it was not the most important thing.The most important thing was the company, the people, the products we were making, what we were going to enable people do with these products. 很有趣，我23岁拥有超过100万美元的财产。24岁超过了一千万，25岁超过了一亿. 但这不重要，我不是冲着钱去的。 钱允许你做想做的事. 钱让你实现那些短期内看不到效益的创意. 但钱不是最重要的。重要的是公司、人才、产品，是产品带给客户的价值。

对于施乐没落的认识

I actually thought a lot about that, and I learned more about that with John Sculley later on and I think I understand that now pretty well. What happens is, like with John Sculley, err…John came from Pepsi co, and they almost would change their product once every 10 years, to them, new product is like a new size of bottle, so if you are a product person, you couldn’t change the course of that company very much, so who influences the success of Pepsi co?我一直在思考这个问题。认识约翰•斯卡利以后，我现在有了清晰的答案。是这样，就像斯卡利一样，他以前在百事可乐工作，他们的产品可以数十年不变，顶多更换可乐瓶子的尺寸。所以产品部门的人说话没什么份量。在百事公司谁最有发言权？The sales and marketing people, therefore they would once get promoted and therefore they would once run the company. Well, for Pepsi co, that might have been okay. But it turns out the same thing can happen in technology companies, that they get monopolies, like old IBM and Xerox. If you are a product person at IBM or Xerox, so you make a better copy or a better computer, so what?是营销部门的人，他们很容易升职从而掌管公司。对百事来说，这不是件坏事。问题是垄断科技公司也有这种情况，比如IBM和施乐。即便IBM和施乐的产品经理能做出更棒的产品，那又怎么样？When you have a monopolies market share, the company is not any more successful. So the people who can make the company more successful are sales and marketing people.And they end up running the companies, and the product people get driven out of this decision making forms. And the companies forget what it means to make great products. It... Sort of the product sensibility, and... The product genius brought them to that monopolistic position gets rotted out by people running this companies who have no conception of a good product versus a bad product.这些已经垄断市场的公司很难靠新产品提高业绩。要想提高业绩还得依靠营销部门。于是他们逐渐控制公司，而产品部门的人被边缘化。公司就丧失了打造优秀的产品热情和能力。产品部门的功臣慢慢被不懂产品的人排挤。They have no conception of craftsmanship that’s required … that take a good idea and turn it into a good product. And they really have no feeling in their hearts usually about wanting to really help the customers. So that’s what happens in Xerox, the people in Xerox PARC used to call the people who run the Xerox tonerheads, and these tonerheads would come out to the Xerox and PARC says they have no clue of what they are saying.后者通常缺少研发产品的技术和能力。而且也并非打心底愿意替客户解决问题。施乐公司就是这样。施乐研究院的人私底下把管理层叫做墨粉脑袋，而这些管理人员完全不明白为什么被嘲笑。

对于优秀人才的认识

when they started getting bigger, they want to replicate their initial success, and a lot of them think well somehow there are some magic in the process, of how success is created... so they started to try to institutionalize process across the company. And before very long, people get very confused that the process is the content…that’s ultimately the downfall of IBM.公司规模扩大之后，就会变得因循守旧，他们觉得只要遵守流程，就能奇迹般地继续成功，于是开始推行严格的流程制度，很快员工就把遵守流程和纪律当作工作本身。IBM就是这样走下坡路的。

IBM has the best process people in the world, they just forgot about the content. And that’s so what happened a little bit at apple too, we had a lot of people who are great at management process, they just didn’t have a clue at the content, and in my career, I found that the best people you know are the ones who really understand the content, and they are pain in the butt to manage, you know but you put up with it because they are so great at the content, and that’s what makes a great product, it’s not process, it’s content.IBM的员工是世界上最守纪律的，他们恰恰忽略了产品，苹果也有这个问题，我们有很多擅长管理流程的人才，但是他们忽略了产品本身，经验告诉我，优秀的人才是那些一心想着产品的人，虽然这些人很难管理，但是我宁愿和他们一起工作，光靠流程和制度做不出好产品。

对于创意和产品之间的认识

You know... one of the things that really hurt Apple was after I left, John Sculley got a very serious "disease", and that "disease", I have seen other people get it too, it's the "disease" of thinking that a really great idea is 90% of the work, and if you just tell all these other people, "here is this great idea!", then of course they can go off and make it happen. And the problem with that is that there is just tremendous amount of craftsmanship in between a great idea and a great product. And as you evolve the great idea, it changes and grows, it never comes out like it starts. 我离开苹果以后，发生了一件几乎毁掉苹果的事。John Sculley有个严重的"毛病"，我在其他人身上也见到过。那就盲目乐观，以为光凭创意就能取得成功。他觉得只要想到绝妙的主意，公司就一定可以实现，问题在于优秀的创意与产品之间隔着巨大的鸿沟，实现创意的过程中，想法会发生变化甚至变得面目全非。

对于保持工作热情和想法的认识

Because you learn a lot more, you get into the subtleties, you also find ... There's tremendous trade-offs that you have to make, I mean you know there are just certain things you can't make electrons do, there are certain things you can't make plastic do, or glass do, and... or factories do, robots do, and you get into all these things, designing a product is keeping 5000 things in your brain. These concepts, and fitting them all together in... and kind of continuing to push and fit them together and in new and in different ways to get what you want. And everyday you discover something new that is new problem or new opportunity to fit these things together a little differently. It's that process that is the magic. 因为你会发现新东西，思考也更深入，你不得不一次次权衡利弊，做出让步和调整。总有些问题是电子设备解决不了的，是塑料、玻璃材料无法实现的，或者是工厂和机器人做不到的。设计一款产品，你得把五千多个问题装进脑子里，必须仔细梳理，尝试各种组合，才能获得想要的结果。每天都会发现新问题，也会产生新灵感，这个过程很重要。

对于团队合作的认识

It's that through the team, through that group of incredibly talented people bumping up against each other, having arguments, having fights sometimes, making some noise, and working together they polish each other. and they polish the ideas, and what comes out are these really beautiful stones. 正是通过团队合作，通过这些精英的相互碰撞。通过辩论、对抗、争吵、合作，相互打磨。磨砺彼此的想法，才能创造出美丽的"石头"。

对于组建团队的认识

The best CD player and an average CD player, I don't know, 20%? 2 to 1 is a big..big dynamic range in most life. In software, and it used to be the case with hardware too. The difference between average and the best is 15 to 1, maybe a 100 to 1, Okay? Very few things in life are like this. But what I was lucky enough to spend my life in, is like this, and so I built lots of my success of finding these truly gifted people, and not settling for being C players, really going for A players. They really like working with each other, because they never had a chance to do that before, and they don't want to work with being C players, so they become self-policing, they only want to hire more A players. So you built up these pockets of A players and itpropagates, and that's what the Mac team was like, they were all A players, and these were extraordinarily talented people. 最棒的CD机与普通CD机的差距有多大？20%？这种差距很少超过两倍。但是在软件行业，还有硬件行业，这种差距有可能超过15倍，甚至100倍。这种现象很罕见，能进入这个行业，我感到很幸运，我的成功得益于我发现了许多才华横溢、不甘平庸的人才，而且我发现只要召集到五个这样的人，他们就会喜欢上彼此合作的感觉，前所未有的感觉，他们会不愿再与平庸者合作，只招聘一样优秀的人，所以你只要找到几个精英，他们就会自己扩大团队。Mac团队就是这样，大家才华横溢，都很优秀。

对于微软的认识

Microsoft's orbit was made possible by a Saturn 5 booster called IBM. And I know Bill would get upset with me for saying this, but of course it was true. And much to Bill and Microsoft's credit they used that fantastic opportunity to create more opportunities for themselves. Most people don't remember but until 1984 with the Mac, Microsoft was not in the application business, which dominated by Lotus. And Microsoft took a big gamble, to write for the Mac. And they came out with applications that were terrible. But they kept at it and make them better. And eventually, they dominated the Macintosh application market, and then used the spring board of Windows to get into the PC market with the same applications. 微软起家全靠了IBM。比尔听我这么说会很生气，但这是事实，比尔和微软抓住了机会，创造成了更多机会。人们忘了微软在1984年之前根本不做应用软件，那时是Lotus的天下。微软确实很有胆量，冒险为Mac编写应用程序，刚开始他们的应用程序非常糟，但他们不断改进，最终占领了Mac的应用市场。然后借助Windows这块跳板，打开了PC市场的大门。And now they dominated the application business in the PC space too. So they have 2 characteristics. I think they are very strong opportunists. And I don't mean that in a bad way. And two, they are like the Japanese. They just keep on coming. And now, they were able to do that because of the revenue stream from the IBM deal. But nonetheless they made the most of it and I gave them a lot of credit for that. The only problem with Microsoft is they just have no taste. They have absolutely no taste, and what that means is... I don't mean that in a small way, I meant that in a big way in the sense that they don't think of original ideas, and they don't bring much culture into their products. 现在他们已经占领了PC市场，我觉得他们有两大优势：首先，擅长捕捉机会。其次，像日本人一样锲而不舍。他们起家全靠跟IBM合作。但是他们很擅长利用机会，这一点我很佩服。微软唯一的问题是没品位，完全没有品位可言，只会一味模仿，产品缺少文化和内涵，为什么这很重要？And you say why is that important, well, proportionally spaced fonts come from typesetting and beautiful books. That's where one gets the idea. If it weren't for the Mac, they would have never had that in their products.And, so I guess, I'm saddened not by Microsoft's success. I have no problem with their success. They've earned their success, for the most part. I have the problem with the fact that they just make really third-rate products. 比例字体的灵感来自字体设计和精美书籍，如果没有Mac，微软永远不会想到这些。让我难过的并非微软的成功，我一点不嫉妒他们，他们的成功基本上是靠勤奋工作换来的，我难过的是他们做的是三流产品。Their products have no spirit to them. Their products have no... sort of spirit of enlightenment about them. They are very pedestrian. And the sad part is that most customers don't have a lot of that spirit either. But the way we are going to ratch it up... our species, is to take the best, and to spread it around everybody. So that everyone grows up with better things, and start to understand the subtleties of these better things. And Microsoft is just... McDonalds. And that's what saddens me. Not that Microsoft has won, but that Microsoft products don't displayed more insight and more creativity. 他们的产品没有灵魂和魅力，太过平庸，更让人难过的是用户居然毫无察觉。但人活着是要追求极致，并分享给同类的，这样人类才能共同进步，学会欣赏更美的东西。微软不过是另一个麦当劳，这才是我难过的原因，不是因为微软赢了，而是因为微软的产品缺少创意。

一个激励他的故事

I read an article when I was very young, in the Scientific American, and it measures the efficiency of locomotion for various species on the planet. So for you know for bear, Chimpanzee, raccoons and birds, and fish, how many calories per kilometer they spend to move, and humans was measured too, the condor won, it was the most efficient, and the mankind, the crowned creation, came in with rather unimpressive showing about 3rd way down the list, but somebody there had the brilliance to test a human riding a bicycle, blew away the condor, all the way off the charts, and I remember this really had an impact on me. I really remember this - humans were tool builders, and we build tools that can dramatically amplify our human abilities. 我小时候读过《科学美国人》杂志的一篇文章，杂志比较了地球上不同物种的移动效率，比如熊、猩猩、浣熊、鸟类、鱼类等，计算它们每移动一公里消耗的热量，还有人类，最后秃鹫赢了，它的移动效率最高，作为万物之灵的人类，排在倒数第几位。但是杂志特地测量了人类骑自行车的效率，结果把秃鹫远远甩在了身后，在排名上遥遥领先。这篇文章给我留下了深刻的印象，人类擅长发明工具，工具够赋予我们奇妙的能力。

如何判断哪个方向是正确的

You know ultimately it comes down to taste, it comes down to taste, it comes down to trying to expose yourself to the best things that humans have done, and try to bring these things in to what you are doing. Picasso had a saying "good artists copy, great artists steal", we have always been shameless about stealing great ideas, and I think part of what made the Macintosh great was that people working on it were musicians, and poets and artists, and zoologists and historians, who also happened to be the best computer scientists in the world. But if it hadn't been computer science, these people would have all been doing amazing things in other fields, and they all brought with them, we all brought to this effort a very liberal arts sort of air, a very liberal arts attitude that we want to pull in the best that we saw in other fields into this field, and I don't think you'll get that if you are very narrow. 最终得由你的品味来决定。你要熟悉人类在各种领域的优秀成果。尝试把它们运用到你的工作里。毕加索说过：拙工抄，巧匠盗。我从来不觉得借鉴别人的创意可耻，Macintosh团队里有音乐家，有诗人、艺术家、动物学家、历史学家，这些人也懂计算机，所以Macintosh才这么出色，如果没有计算机，他们也会在其他领域造创奇迹。大家各自贡献自己的专业知识。Macintosh因此吸收了各个领域的优秀成果，否则的话，它很可能是一款非常狭隘的产品。