专访Miguel de Icaza

Interview with Miguel de Icaza, co-founder of Gnome, Ximian and Mono

专访Gnome、Ximian和Mono的创始人之一，Miguel de Icaza

Born in Mexico City, Miguel de Icaza was the driving force behind the creation of the Gnome free software desktop, and co-founded the open source company Ximian, bought last August by Novell. In July 2001, he helped start another ambitious project, Mono: a free implementation for GNU/Linux of Microsoft's .Net framework. He talks to Glyn Moody about Mono's progress, how Ximian was bought by Novell, and why he is so scared of Microsoft's Longhorn.

Miguel de Icaza出生于墨西哥城。他推动了Gnome（Linux操作系统上的一个自由桌面软件）的问世，同时还是开放源代码公司Ximian的共同创始人。Ximian公司于2003年8月被Novell公司收购。从2001年开始，他与人合作，启动了另一存志高远的项目：Mono，一个Microsoft .NET Framework的自由GNU/Linux实现。在这次访问中，Miguel谈及Mono的进展、Ximian被Novell收购的情况，以及自己害怕Longhorn的原因。

Q. How has your vision of Mono changed since you began the project, and what are the main aims of Mono today?

问：你怎么看待项目启动以来，Mono的变化？目前Mono的主要目标是什么？

A. A lot of the things that Microsoft was addressing with .Net were touching on existing pain points for us. We've been using C and C++ way too much - they're nice, but they're very close to the machine and what we wanted was to empower regular users to build applications for Linux. Windows has a lot of tools that address a particular problem but on Linux we're kind of on our own in terms of development So when Microsoft came out with this [.Net] thing, initially what we saw was very interesting, and that's how the project got started. But as people got together and started to work and collaborate on this effort, a couple of things happened.

答：Microsoft对.Net的许多处理触及我们的痛处。一直以来我们使用C和C++太多了——它们很不错，但过于接近底层，我们想做的却是让普通用户也能创建Linux应用程序。在Windows上有许多工具可以解决具体问题，而在Linux上却得依靠自己去开发。所以，当Microsoft推出.NET，我们对它一见钟情，就启动了Mono。不过，大家开始合作之后，发生了一些事情。

首先是关于创建与Microsoft .NET相兼容的API，Novell和Ximian都只将注意力放在核心库和C#语言；很多其他参与者对Windows Forms、ASP.NET、Web Services或数据库等较感兴趣。

The first one is that there was more and more momentum behind building APIs that were compatible with the Microsoft ones. Novell and Ximian were focused just on the core and C#; a lot of the people who came and contributed software to the project were interested in Windows Forms, or ASP.Net or Web services or databases, which were part of the Microsoft stack.

And at the same time we have grown organically a stack completely independent of the Microsoft stack, which we call the Mono stack but it includes things like tools for doing GUI development for Linux - that was one thing that we were very interested in and we actually invested a lot of effort into that.

那时，我们已经搭建了独立于Microsoft构件集之外的一套体系，其中也包括在Linux下进行GUI开发的工具（我们对此很有兴趣，且投入了大量工作）。

So today at the core we still have Mono, which is what we wanted to do, and now we've got two very healthy independent stacks: the Microsoft-compatible stack for people who want to bring their applications from Windows to Linux, and also this completely new and fresh stack of things that in some cases are portable from Linux to Windows, and in some cases are very, very Linux specific.

这样，在核心层，我们创建了Mono，而且得到两个优质的独立构件集：兼容于Microsoft的构件集，开发者利用它把应用从Windows迁移到Linux；另一个全新构件集在某些情况下是跨平台的，但在另外一些情况下却更Linux化。

Q. Microsoft doesn't seem to be making so much noise about .Net these days: what's your view of .Net's progress at the moment: how is it shaping up as a platform for writing software?

问：现在Microsoft似乎并不大肆宣传.NET了。你对.NET目前的进度怎么看？它是怎么搭建一个软件编写平台的？

A. I think that Microsoft overdid what .Net was. Initially, the message was extremely confusing because .Net meant too many things. It meant a set of server products, it meant a special edition of Windows, it meant a development platform. When we refer to .Net we call it the .Net framework, which is what it actually was - it was only one of the components of .Net. And the .Net framework is actually a fairly good development platform. At least it has stopped the migration of people who were sick and tired of MFC to Java. Now they have a much better solution if they go with the Microsoft-based technology and there's a nice migration path. So I think they've been successful.

答：我认为在.NET上Microsoft的做法稍嫌过分。首先，.NET意味着太多东西，反而让人极度迷惑。它既是一套服务器产品，又是一个特殊的Windows版本，还是一个开发平台。我们谈到.NET的时候，实际上是指.NET Framework，那才是它的本来面目——.NET的一个组成部分。.NET Framework是非常好的开发平台。至少，它让对MFC心生厌恶的人们不再转移到Java平台。如果这些人继续走Microsoft技术路线，那么他们得到了比以前好得多的解决方案，且较易转移过去。我认为微软成功了。

You probably don't hear too much about .Net because now it's not hot news, it's just something that developers have. And the other reason might be because they're going through another rebranding exercise within Microsoft - I think it's going to be massively complex. They're trying to rebrand .Net framework into WinFX - not to be confused with WinFS . WinFX is basically the new version of the .Net framework with things for Longhorn, so it includes WinFS, it includes Avalon, it includes communications. The whole Longhorn thing is built on top of .Net.

可能你不怎么听到关于.NET的消息，这是因为它已经不是热点新闻，而成为了开发者的工具。还有一种可能性是微软的重造品牌战略——我认为会让事情更加复杂。他们试图把.NET Framework重新塑造为WinFX——别与WinFS相混淆。WinFX基本上是Longhorn上的.NET Framework新版本，所以它会包括WinFS、Avalon和通讯架构。整个Longhorn搭建于.NET平台之上。

Q. One big change since Mono started has been Novell's acquisition of Ximian; how did it come about?

问：Novell收购Ximian是Mono项目启动以来的一件大事，具体过程如何？

A. We had a product for Linux called Red Carpet. It's something for maintaining the software and software updates on Linux machines on servers and clients. We had a fantastic GUI, we had a command line tool that allowed administrators to schedule things so it can be completely unattended, you could centrally manage things, roll out deployments, back out, undo. We basically had a very good product for Linux, and Novell has an equivalent software product for Windows. So we were talking about how can we marry these products, how can we benefit from each other.

答：我们有一个基于Linux的产品，Red Carpet，用于管理Linux服务器和客户机之间的软件更新。图形界面非常棒，也有让管理员做计划任务的命令行工具；你能对软件更新做集中管理、分发、备份、恢复等等。该产品基于Linux，Novell拥有一个基于Windows的类似产品。于是大家坐下来谈怎么结合它们，从而使双方获益。

A few of their guys came. They were really trying to see how to position Novell and how they could ship services for Linux; they had a long-term plan. One day they came and presented and they said, well, here's the situation, we really want to get into Linux. I think you guys can help us.

他们那边派了一些人来，想看看怎么定位Novell，以及如何才能把Novell服务移植到Linux上；这是一个长期计划。有一天，他们过来做了演示，然后说：“情况就是如此，我们真的想走向Linux，我想你们可以帮助我们。”

Q. What did you find attractive in becoming part of Novell?

问：成为Novell的一部分，有什么好处？

A. The negotiations, as I said, began with Red Carpet, but the Linux desktop was something that also fascinated them and they also wanted to become a player in the desktop space - we don't want to be relegated to the server space only, the client is where all the action is happening. So [being acquired] allowed us to restaff and continue working on the desktop without having to focus continuously on this [Red Carpet] thing.

答：我刚才提到，合作始于Red Carpet。Linux桌面系统对他们也深具吸引力，他们希望在这方面有所成就——我们决不愿意在服务器端画地为牢，客户端才是一切操作发生之地。Novell收购案让我们能重组团队，在桌面端继续工作，而无需在Red Carpet上持续投入。

Q. Has Novell decided what form the desktop will take - will it be Gnome-based, or have other elements?

问：Novell是否决定桌面端应采用什么形式？它会基于Gnome吗？或者会有其他元素加入？

A. We cannot choose one desktop over the other - Gnome or KDE - because there's users for both code bases. What we're planning on doing is we're working with an organisation called the Freedesktop.org. The idea there is they define protocols - things like desktop notification systems, system-wide configuration engine, clipboard support, drag and drop, etc. We're pushing those into Gnome and KDE to unify those things and the default desktop really is a combination of elements.

答：我们不能从一而终——Gnome和KDE都有各自的用户。我们的计划是与Freedesktop.org合作。他们制订协议——例如桌面通知系统、系统级配置引擎、剪贴板支持、拖放等等。我们正将这些要素放入Gnome和KDE，让桌面与这些元素合为一体。

Gnome and KDE are basically the shells, but then there are higher-level applications like the office suite. We're making the decision it's going to be OpenOffice, the browser it's going to be Mozilla, the email client it's going to be Evolution, the IM client it's going to be Gaim. So we basically have to pick successful open source projects and put them together. There's a lot of work on integrating.

基本上Gnome和KDE都是内核的外壳(shell)，在它们之上还有office套件这样的高阶应用。我们决定采用OpenOffice，浏览器采用Mozilla，Email客户端采用Evolution，即时通讯客户端采用Gaim。这样，我们需要把这些成功的开源项目组合到一起。整合工作耗力甚巨。

Q. You've drawn a distinction between a GNU/Linux desktop and an open source desktop: what did you mean by that?

问：你们在GNU/Linux桌面和开源桌面之间做了选择，请详细解释一下。

A. In some cases we've been building tools that are specific to Linux for the desktop, and they only work on Linux, but I see two major projects that are wildly, wildly successful: Mozilla and OpenOffice, and those two programs are cross platform. So if we're going to build new applications that require a large time investment, like say movie editing - today that doesn't matter for the enterprise desktop, but eventually it will when we get closer to consumers - you really need to have a cross-platform story. We all love Linux, but it's also a fact that some people might not be able to migrate. But we can still have them reduce their TCO. You don't necessarily need Office, you don't necessarily need IE or you don't necessarily need Final Cut Pro etc. We should be thinking in terms of building cross-platform applications that will work fine on Windows and under MacOS as well.

答：某种程度上我们一直在开发与Linux桌面紧密相关的工具，且只能运行于Linux之上。我看到有两个相当成功的项目：Mozilla和OpenOffice，都是跨平台的。所以，如果我们打算开发需要时间较多的新项目，例如视频编辑——这类工具目前在企业级桌面系统上并不存在跨平台问题，但愈接近软件客户，跨平台需求可能性愈大。我们喜爱Linux，但并非所有用户都能顺利迁移到这个平台。尽管如此，我们仍能够降低他们的总体成本。也许你不再需要Office、不再需要IE，或者不再需要Final Cut Pro等等。我们应当考虑创建跨平台应用，让它可以运行于Windows和MacOS之上。

Q. When does Novell think that the GNU/Linux desktop will be ready for the general user?

问：Novell何时会迁移至GNU/Linux桌面？

A. We're doing this exercise ourselves. I think that by October the whole company has to migrate to OpenOffice, and then I think it's by June next year we all migrate to Linux - you don't want to migrate 6,000 people both operating system and office suite in a single jump.

答：我们正在努力。我想今年10月整个公司会迁移到OpenOffice，明年六月能够整体迁至Linux——不要指望迁移6000人的工作一蹴而就。

We have a lot of existing customers which are also considering Linux desktop migrations and rolling out some of these programs, so we're learning from them. For example, in Extramadura and Andalucia they've been going out for two years now with these deployments. They have 200,000 deployed seats and they're going towards 400,000 deployed seats by the end of the summer on pure Linux, Gnome, Mozilla, OpenOffice desktops. They're two very, very large deployments, probably the largest deployments of Linux desktops today. These are being used by kids, by grandmothers.

我们现有的相当一些用户也在考虑迁移到Linux桌面，在此过程中也出现一些问题，这些问题正是我们可供借鉴的。例如，Extramadura和Andalucia开始动作两年，现在他们已经在200,000台计算机上部署了Linux、Gnome、Mozilla和OpenOffice，到明年夏末这个数字会增长至400,000台。这是两个极大的部署项目，也许是目前为止最大的Linux桌面系统部署项目，使用者包括孩子和老奶奶们。

Q. What do you see as the greatest danger to the continuing adoption and progress of open source?

问：如果继续走开源路线，你认为将会面临的最大危险是什么？

A. Microsoft realises today that Linux is competing for some of the green pastures that it's been enjoying for so long; I think that Longhorn is a big attempt to take back what they owned before. Longhorn has kind of a scary technology called Avalon, which when compounded with another technology called XAML, it's fairly dangerous. And the reason is that they've made it so it's basically an HTML replacement. The advantage is it's probably as easy as writing HTML, so that means that anybody can produce this content with a text editor.

答：微软意识到Linux闯入自己享用多年的牧场，成为自己的竞争者；我认为Longhorn是微软争夺失地的一大兵器。Longhorn包括一项令人惊恐的技术：Avalon，配合另一项成为XAML的技术，将是极具威胁的。它们基本上是HTML的替代品，如同编写HTML一样容易，这意味着每个人都能使用文本编辑器创建内容。

It's basically an HTML Next Generation. A lot more widgets, a lot more flexibility, more richer experience - way, way richer experience. You get basically the native client experience with Web- like deployments. So you develop these extremely rich applications but they can be deployed as easily as the Web is. It's just like going to a URL: you go to Google, and you get the Web page and it works. So it's the same deployment model but the user interface interaction is just fantastic.

基本上这是下一代的HTML。更多工具、更具灵活性、更丰富的用户体验——你能在本地机上感受到如同Web一般的形式。你开发如此极尽丰富的应用，但分发起来又像Web般简易。和点击URL一样：访问google，网页出现，而且工作正常。分发模型大体如此，但用户界面的高度交互性令人着迷。

Of course, the only drawback is that this new interaction is completely tied to .Net and WinFX. So we see that as a very big danger. A lot of people today cannot migrate to Linux or cannot migrate to Mozilla because a lot of their internal Web sites happen to use IE extensions. Now imagine a world where you can only use XAML.

当然，不利之处在于，新的交互机制被紧缚到.Net和WinFX上。所以我们认为它是一个极大的危险。大量用户无法迁移到Linux或是Mozilla，是因为许多企业的内部站点只支持IE扩展。想想看，只能使用XAML的世界，将会变成怎样？

It's massive - I'm so scared.

巨恐怖，我非常害怕。